Voorpagina Interviews, Maatschappelijk

A brave man in the country of the Star Spangled Banner

Toen ik hoorde dat één van mijn Amerikaanse helden de stad zou bezoeken waar mijn reis begon – en die van vele andere Amerikanen- heb ik ervoor gezorgd dat ik hem in ieder geval een paar vragen mocht stellen. Hij was een goede vriend van Dr. Martin Luther King en van talloze andere figuren die wij, zelfs in het kleine Nederland, nooit zullen vergeten. Hij heeft een immense bijdrage geleverd aan acties tegen rassenonderscheidingen in de Verenigde Staten, toen en nu. Tot op de dag van vandaag werkt hij voor hetgeen waar hij voor staat: Jesse Jackson.


In gesprek (foto: Ayatollah Musa)

Hij bezocht afgelopen weekeinde Rotterdam en was eregast bij de ‘Unity is Strenght’ – awardshow.


What was the most defining moment for you, which made you reach this cool position  as a social leader?

‘The defining experience was growing up in legal segregation. In a society with walls. In a society with limitation of expression. That was very defining.

The race was the use to justify the system. Break all of those walls. Not being limited by race. Not by my ideas, my world of view, my sense of right and wrong. That was defining. But your parents can be the source of inspiration or some minister as a source of inspiration. My athletic coach, he challenged me and ‘hit’ me to get a scholarship to go to school as a source of inspiration. Meet with Dr. King, to work with him was also a defining experience. All along the way I found a gift to gathering hope in the desert.’’ 

Jesse Jackson is één van de prominente leiders van zijn land: de Verenigde Staten.  “You can’t continue a journey without knowing the past.” Zijn organisatie Rainbow/PUSH Coalition is het resultaat van zijn geschiedenis. 

“The further you are apart, the longer it takes you to make the connection. And so sometimes fighting ignorance, hatred, fair is a longer journey. Some people have a kind of instinct for building. I am an outgoing person, wherever I was, in school for example on the basketball court. You will know guys from your team, we were going to start doing stuff. I would be curious about what their interests are. If I were in a class with people like you, I would talk with them because I want to. Trying to find to what connects us. So the willing to connect is important. What Christians and Muslims or Jews have in common is they want to survive and they want to live in a comfort zone. We don’t want to be there where is always fighting.

The quest was asked in the Bible whether there will be peace in the valley. The answer was: when lions and lambs lay together.

That seems strange, because lions are aggressive, greedy and strong and lambs are weak. What will make a lamb trust a lion and what will make a lion compromise with a lamb? At what point were a lion and a lamb lying together?

In my experience of  the negotiator you will find common ground. The lions and lambs need eachother. Need to get water and food etc. So if lions and lambs can find a sort of common ground, the people should also find a certain common ground.”

Uit ons gesprek kan ik concluderen dat deze uitspraak de grondvesten is van het opzetten van zijn organisatie.

Jesse Jackson is ook dominee van de baptistische kerk. Door het beoefenen van zijn werk als dominee en vele andere functies probeert hij een meer humanitaire wereld te creëren waar liefde, gerechtigheid en  hoop centraal staan. 

The media must have asked you questions about your tears during Presidents Obama’s victory speech many times. Could you describe your emotions during his victory speech?

‘’You have the joy and the journey. The joy is the winning. We overcame a lot. I was in jail trying to use a public library. My mother could not vote. My father was a veteran of the Second World War. He could not vote. In the process of marching for better accommodations we were beaten, put in jail and had to leave school. Schools were threatened for the right to vote. People were killed. Dr. King is killed. So many people are murdered just for the right vote. There are so many killed.

People  were able to see the fruits of our labors. That was a great moment of joy. We were in the same park forty years ago as we saw the end of war in Vietnam. So the joy of the moment and the journey to get there overwhelmed me with a sense of ending joy that lasts to this day.’’   

In the current Dutch political climate freedom of speech is regarded as one of the most precious, the most important, pillars of the democratic society. Freedom of speech is allowed, even when it leads to offending remarks mainly with regards to religions. Should we restrain freedom of speech or is that not an option to consider? 

“You only restrain it, when it is a common threat, for example a false use.

No one is free to say ‘fire’ in a building when there is no fire. That is a limitation. But if I choose to say ‘I think your hair dress is ridiculous’ and you say ‘I think you believing in Jesus is ridiculous’ we should be free to say that. It is not right to say it though. It is not awesome to say it. You should be free, because in free speech you get choices. You are going to agree with this, disagree with another. That is the essence of freedom. People all will choose freedom in limitations. We should all be sensitive, but not offensive in our speech. I can say I am planning to kill you. That is free speech, but that is threatening and harmful, therefore that should be denied.

Speech should be free, it should be responsible but it should not be a threatening speech. I should not be free to say I am planning to kill somebody, that is not speech, that is threat, which is wrong.” 
 
Het is een inspirerende man van hoog aanzien, dat is inmiddels wel duidelijk. Hij heeft in zijn land ontzettend veel teweeggebracht op politiek, sociaal-cultureel en ethisch gebied.

We zullen nog veel van hem horen, of in ieder geval van zijn zoon Jesse Jackson Jr, congreslid van de democratische partij in Washington DC.

Legendarisch. Dat is het perfecte woord wat past bij zijn vader. Jesse Jackson is de schrijver van een rijke geschiedenis. En zoals we allemaal weten loopt de geschiedenis vaak anders dan we willen. Soms worden de acties die je voert, of de uitspraken die je maakt, verkeerd begrepen door anderen.

Dat is maar goed ook, want als we het allemaal met elkaar eens waren en alles zouden tolereren wat er om ons heen gebeurt, zou er weinig over zijn van een dynamische wijblijvenhier.nl.

Na anderhalf uur gepraat te hebben over politiek, familie, de mensheid, dromen, integratie versus segregatie, Amerika en zijn aparte gewoontes, Nederland tijdens de Super Bowl, vaders en moeders, onze BFF Barack Hussein Obama en waar alles om draait: liefde, kan ik zeggen dat het een zeer bijzondere ontmoeting is geweest.

Ik wil niet zeggen dat ik Jesse Jackson heb geïnterviewd; ik heb hem gesproken. Hij zag mij niet als ‘één van de vele Fatima’s’, maar als een medemens. En met alle goede wil van de wereld keken we niet naar onze verschillen, maar wat we gemeen hebben. 

You came to the Netherlands before. What do you think Dutch people can learn from the Americans and vice versa?

We have been through a process that diversity is not a burn. It is an opportunity. This year I watched the Dutch baseball team. I don’t want to associate the Netherlands with a baseball team. People are here from the Dominicans who play baseball. All the soccer teams you have here. You learn that inclusion is a key to growth. And in growth everybody wins. And that our mission must be a one big Netherlands.

And see eachother in a broader limit and not in the limit of race. We must see eachother differently. So we must learn from eachother. 

De fauteuil in het Hilton voelt warm aan, de broodjes hebben gesmaakt, de koffie was vers en nu.. Dankjewel. Tot de volgende keer.


Weer in gesprek (foto: Ayatollah Musa)